Post by David Bryan on Apr 6, 2012 9:21:56 GMT -5
Hello. This is NO sales pitch. This is a thread to ask questions, and (hopefully) get good, honest answers. ALL things rear axle. I know what works, what does not work, in the derby world. I will try and answer from what I know, not from what I have heard. If I do not know, I will write that I do not know. Simple as that.
Axle shaft diameters, measured at the splines:
28 spline 1.20"
30 spline 1.28"
31 spline 1.325"
33 spline 1.40"
35 spline 1.51"
30 spline (GM 14 bolt full float) 1.53"
40 spline 1.70"
All measurements are approximate.
For quick referance, 28 spline GM works with 28 spline Ford. 30 spline GM works with 30 spline Mopar (8 3/4" car and Dana 60 truck). 31 spline GM works with 31 spline Ford.
I have been working/playing/tinkering with rear axles shafts, rear axle assemblies for a long time now. I know most of the combinations, if not all. In 1993, I combined 69' - 70' Buick 30 spline, bolt in, alxe shafts with a 12 bolt GM truck rear housing (4:10 ratio). I ran this under GM wagons for many years. I made many of these assemblies for other drivers. A few short years later, I realized a 31 spline, bolt in, Buick axle shaft would fit in a Ford 9", 31 spline carrier. The "hybrid" was born. I have made many hundreds of these assemblies for other drivers.
There have been almost endless trials and errors to get to the place I am now. And, to this day, I am still breaking new ground with the 40 spline shaft in a GM 14 bolt full-floater (now non-floater). As time allows, I will continue this work.
So, here are a few notes. I will ADD to this list as time allows.
To start, these notes are as short as possible. IF you have questions, simply ask.
GM axle assemblies, 4 common variations of "12" bolt:
"12 bolt gears": There is the GM "C" 12 bolt assembly, made in Canada. Good gears, bad shafts. These came under GM "A" body cars, mostly the Chevy Chevelle. They also came under full size Chevy Caprice. 1964 to 1972, are the most common years. These rear assemblies are the ones you CAN buy gear sets for. These 12 bolts are "C" clip, and are 30 spline. You can buy up to a 35 spline full spool for these. A full spool requires the use of a bolt in axle shaft.
There is the 12 bolt "O" assembly, came under GM "A" body OLDs Cutlass, 4-4-2. Bad gears, bad shafts. These are very hard to find parts for now.
There is the 12 bolt "B" assembly under the GM Buick and Olds full size cars. Good shafts, bad gears. These are 31 spline and bolt in. A very good, to great, stock axle shaft, however, the best performance gear set available is the Riviera GS with a 3:42 ratio. No full spool is available. Also, there are NO after-market gear sets for these rear assemblies.
These axle shafts are the "good" one's people look for.
1971, to 1975 are the most common years. Sedan, hardtop, station wagon, left side, right side, they are ALL the same axle shaft. They are all 31.5" long. ALL 5 on 5" pattern
12 bolt "truck" assembly, came under GM 1/2 ton pickups. Good gears, bad shafts. 30 spline "C" clip. Great place for factory gearsets to build a "cheap" assembly. Can still buy gear sets for. Must cut and weld for bolt in axle shafts. 1968 to 1970 Buick full size cars are 30 spline and bolt in (5 on 5" pattern). Good axle shafts for the GM 12 bolt truck. 69' to 70' Buick Estate wagon axle shafts have the SAME Timken, deep bore, 45 mm wheel bearing used by the Moser Hobby stock axle shafts for sale today. Again, must cut and weld housing ends.
Ford 9" axle assemblies and third members. Many variations: Stock 9" cases CAN be weak. "Old" nodular cases are only a little better. After-market cases are best. In my opinion, a GM 10 bolt center (gear set) is stronger than a factory Ford 9" case (and gear set). After-market cases are by far better than both the GM and factory Ford case. IF you STOP your car before you shift, in derby, a stock case will hold up just fine. IF you SHIFT while the car is moving, the factory case will break. It is only a matter of time. It seems, more parts shatter when shifting from forward to reverse, than shifting from reverse to forward. Most times, the pinion will get loose, and this will shatter a main cap. Not always the "case" though. No pun intended.
ALWAYS, always use a solid pinion spacer in a Ford 9" case. This is for either stock case or after-market. It WILL take more time to set up correctly with a solid pinion spacer, but, in my opinion, well worth the trouble. Also, good insurance is to run an after-market "Daytona" support. This accepts/requires a bigger bearing. Speedway Motors and Quick Performance are the cheapest places to buy these parts.
Ford 9" after-market cases; Moser (Moser) and Yukon (Quick Performance) cases use bigger main cap bolts. Speedway cases use the factory size main cap bolts. Two things; Bigger can be better. Bigger bolts are stronger. However, a bigger hole in a main cap is a weaker main cap. But with that written, Yukon and Moser have bigger main caps. A Moser case is the most expensive at $370.00 list price. A Speedway case is the cheapest at $205.00 list price. Quick Performance is the cheepest place I have found Yukon cases.
Moser 260 726 6689 Tony, Shane, Matt, Ken
Speedway Motors 800 979 0122 Gary, Jeremy (walk in counter)
Quick Performance 641 751 8060 Brydon
Ford 9" pinion shafts; This pinion shaft diameter is small at 1.313" diameter. And you want to hang a 15 pound rotor and and a 35 pound drive shaft to this pinion? Yes, it will will work. I do not want to scare people. It is at maximum limit though. (The GM 10 bolt pinion is 1.625" diameter.) (The Dana 60 is also 1.626")( GM 14 bolt and Dana 70 are 1.75")
There ARE after-market gear sets available for the Ford 9" that have a 35 spline pinion shaft (1.513"). These are, by far, stronger than factory. These are NOT cheap, starting at $320.00 a set. Do NOT worry about the claim "drag race only". Some will claim that they are not for derby use. Well, I claim they are for just that very thing. They ARE made for "high shock loads", NOT for the street and long time use. Yes, they may wear out sooner, (they may not go 5 thousand miles), but bigger and "high shock loads"? A very GOOD thing in derby. Continuous testing, by one of the hardest drivers in the world, seem to proove what I write. I usually carry a few of these third members on the shelf. These are also the ones I auction off at the Lunatic (Kinsey) auction each spring. There are 1350 (cross type) pinion yokes and round (Brian Nerat, stainless mfg.) yokes available for these pinion shafts. Postal Mopar (Scott, 402 843 6157) now carries pinion brakes for these "large" pinion third members.
FORD 8.8" car housing assemblies. (Also, Ford pickup 86' and newer, good for gear sets, or leaf cars);
Good gears, bad shafts. "C" clip style axle shafts. In all respects, a "copy" of the famous GM 10 bolt 8.5" assembly. Possibly a little better with the bigger carrier bearings. Will bolt in a 71' - 76' GM sedan, full size. Plenty of Ford gear sets, and after-market gear sets available. 31, 33, and 35 spline full spools available ($205 list price from Moser). Uses the SAME carrier bearings as the GM "C" 12 bolt housing. Set up is the same as the GM 10 bolt. The housing strength is the same as the GM 10 bolt housing. "Large" round factory, pinion yokes are common. Cut and weld on housings ends, for bolt in axle shafts, for a very good housing assembly. If you want to run 35 spline axle shafts, in a factory stock looking housing, this is the one to choose. Bolts in to newer Ford cars because, well, that is where they come from.
Axle shafts:
Moser Hobby Stock axle shafts are the BEST, single wheel bearing, axle shaft, for derby use, made today. Period.
There IS a good, better, and best, in the after-market.
More to come. David Bryan
Axle shaft diameters, measured at the splines:
28 spline 1.20"
30 spline 1.28"
31 spline 1.325"
33 spline 1.40"
35 spline 1.51"
30 spline (GM 14 bolt full float) 1.53"
40 spline 1.70"
All measurements are approximate.
For quick referance, 28 spline GM works with 28 spline Ford. 30 spline GM works with 30 spline Mopar (8 3/4" car and Dana 60 truck). 31 spline GM works with 31 spline Ford.
I have been working/playing/tinkering with rear axles shafts, rear axle assemblies for a long time now. I know most of the combinations, if not all. In 1993, I combined 69' - 70' Buick 30 spline, bolt in, alxe shafts with a 12 bolt GM truck rear housing (4:10 ratio). I ran this under GM wagons for many years. I made many of these assemblies for other drivers. A few short years later, I realized a 31 spline, bolt in, Buick axle shaft would fit in a Ford 9", 31 spline carrier. The "hybrid" was born. I have made many hundreds of these assemblies for other drivers.
There have been almost endless trials and errors to get to the place I am now. And, to this day, I am still breaking new ground with the 40 spline shaft in a GM 14 bolt full-floater (now non-floater). As time allows, I will continue this work.
So, here are a few notes. I will ADD to this list as time allows.
To start, these notes are as short as possible. IF you have questions, simply ask.
GM axle assemblies, 4 common variations of "12" bolt:
"12 bolt gears": There is the GM "C" 12 bolt assembly, made in Canada. Good gears, bad shafts. These came under GM "A" body cars, mostly the Chevy Chevelle. They also came under full size Chevy Caprice. 1964 to 1972, are the most common years. These rear assemblies are the ones you CAN buy gear sets for. These 12 bolts are "C" clip, and are 30 spline. You can buy up to a 35 spline full spool for these. A full spool requires the use of a bolt in axle shaft.
There is the 12 bolt "O" assembly, came under GM "A" body OLDs Cutlass, 4-4-2. Bad gears, bad shafts. These are very hard to find parts for now.
There is the 12 bolt "B" assembly under the GM Buick and Olds full size cars. Good shafts, bad gears. These are 31 spline and bolt in. A very good, to great, stock axle shaft, however, the best performance gear set available is the Riviera GS with a 3:42 ratio. No full spool is available. Also, there are NO after-market gear sets for these rear assemblies.
These axle shafts are the "good" one's people look for.
1971, to 1975 are the most common years. Sedan, hardtop, station wagon, left side, right side, they are ALL the same axle shaft. They are all 31.5" long. ALL 5 on 5" pattern
12 bolt "truck" assembly, came under GM 1/2 ton pickups. Good gears, bad shafts. 30 spline "C" clip. Great place for factory gearsets to build a "cheap" assembly. Can still buy gear sets for. Must cut and weld for bolt in axle shafts. 1968 to 1970 Buick full size cars are 30 spline and bolt in (5 on 5" pattern). Good axle shafts for the GM 12 bolt truck. 69' to 70' Buick Estate wagon axle shafts have the SAME Timken, deep bore, 45 mm wheel bearing used by the Moser Hobby stock axle shafts for sale today. Again, must cut and weld housing ends.
Ford 9" axle assemblies and third members. Many variations: Stock 9" cases CAN be weak. "Old" nodular cases are only a little better. After-market cases are best. In my opinion, a GM 10 bolt center (gear set) is stronger than a factory Ford 9" case (and gear set). After-market cases are by far better than both the GM and factory Ford case. IF you STOP your car before you shift, in derby, a stock case will hold up just fine. IF you SHIFT while the car is moving, the factory case will break. It is only a matter of time. It seems, more parts shatter when shifting from forward to reverse, than shifting from reverse to forward. Most times, the pinion will get loose, and this will shatter a main cap. Not always the "case" though. No pun intended.
ALWAYS, always use a solid pinion spacer in a Ford 9" case. This is for either stock case or after-market. It WILL take more time to set up correctly with a solid pinion spacer, but, in my opinion, well worth the trouble. Also, good insurance is to run an after-market "Daytona" support. This accepts/requires a bigger bearing. Speedway Motors and Quick Performance are the cheapest places to buy these parts.
Ford 9" after-market cases; Moser (Moser) and Yukon (Quick Performance) cases use bigger main cap bolts. Speedway cases use the factory size main cap bolts. Two things; Bigger can be better. Bigger bolts are stronger. However, a bigger hole in a main cap is a weaker main cap. But with that written, Yukon and Moser have bigger main caps. A Moser case is the most expensive at $370.00 list price. A Speedway case is the cheapest at $205.00 list price. Quick Performance is the cheepest place I have found Yukon cases.
Moser 260 726 6689 Tony, Shane, Matt, Ken
Speedway Motors 800 979 0122 Gary, Jeremy (walk in counter)
Quick Performance 641 751 8060 Brydon
Ford 9" pinion shafts; This pinion shaft diameter is small at 1.313" diameter. And you want to hang a 15 pound rotor and and a 35 pound drive shaft to this pinion? Yes, it will will work. I do not want to scare people. It is at maximum limit though. (The GM 10 bolt pinion is 1.625" diameter.) (The Dana 60 is also 1.626")( GM 14 bolt and Dana 70 are 1.75")
There ARE after-market gear sets available for the Ford 9" that have a 35 spline pinion shaft (1.513"). These are, by far, stronger than factory. These are NOT cheap, starting at $320.00 a set. Do NOT worry about the claim "drag race only". Some will claim that they are not for derby use. Well, I claim they are for just that very thing. They ARE made for "high shock loads", NOT for the street and long time use. Yes, they may wear out sooner, (they may not go 5 thousand miles), but bigger and "high shock loads"? A very GOOD thing in derby. Continuous testing, by one of the hardest drivers in the world, seem to proove what I write. I usually carry a few of these third members on the shelf. These are also the ones I auction off at the Lunatic (Kinsey) auction each spring. There are 1350 (cross type) pinion yokes and round (Brian Nerat, stainless mfg.) yokes available for these pinion shafts. Postal Mopar (Scott, 402 843 6157) now carries pinion brakes for these "large" pinion third members.
FORD 8.8" car housing assemblies. (Also, Ford pickup 86' and newer, good for gear sets, or leaf cars);
Good gears, bad shafts. "C" clip style axle shafts. In all respects, a "copy" of the famous GM 10 bolt 8.5" assembly. Possibly a little better with the bigger carrier bearings. Will bolt in a 71' - 76' GM sedan, full size. Plenty of Ford gear sets, and after-market gear sets available. 31, 33, and 35 spline full spools available ($205 list price from Moser). Uses the SAME carrier bearings as the GM "C" 12 bolt housing. Set up is the same as the GM 10 bolt. The housing strength is the same as the GM 10 bolt housing. "Large" round factory, pinion yokes are common. Cut and weld on housings ends, for bolt in axle shafts, for a very good housing assembly. If you want to run 35 spline axle shafts, in a factory stock looking housing, this is the one to choose. Bolts in to newer Ford cars because, well, that is where they come from.
Axle shafts:
Moser Hobby Stock axle shafts are the BEST, single wheel bearing, axle shaft, for derby use, made today. Period.
There IS a good, better, and best, in the after-market.
More to come. David Bryan
