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Post by David Bryan on May 8, 2012 0:35:02 GMT -5
Hello. mkvien, thank you for the comments. At times, I think I have forgot more things than I know now. I thought it may be time to share some of what I can recall.
First, brass. I do not think I have used brass, even for some of the first prototypes. Brass may work fine. I do not use brass though. I use bearing bronze. So bronze is the correct term, however, if you write brass, I (and most all else) will know what you mean. A bronze bushing will not fix the spline breaking problem.
I use bronze (as a bushing) to replace the wheel bearing.
A bronze bushing WILL fix the wheel bearing breakage. As far as I know, none of my bushings have failed. ever. They do wear. They can get a lot of end play, but never failed. They WILL take a tremendous beating from side impact. Time and time again. Figure 8 cars will show the most wear, but remember what they do. They turn left, they turn right, all night long. Very little straight line action. It is this continuous side load that will cause wear. One car, fifteen or more races per year, for over 7 years. The same bushings. I think that is a good record. In my opinion, a figure 8 car will see more side load in one race, than a derby car will see in two or more seasons. Bronze is a good thing. What is the downside? ? ? ?....... .....still thinking......... There really are none.
The bushings I sell will always get locked in to the housing. The axle shaft will then spin in the bushing. This is similar to a wheel bearing. So, in another way, my bushings will slide right on an axle shaft. The press ring (or lock collar) keep the axle shaft from sliding out of the housing. I always try and use two press rings (lock collars) for one axle shaft. On factory axle shafts, there is usually only enough room for one press ring. I also sell custom made press rings for the 1.562" and 1.77" axle shafts. I have many combinations of bronze, seals, and press rings.
Some examples:
(1.562" = small shaft, 1.77" = big shaft)
(GM, Mopar housing = small hole)
Ford, Moser end = big hole)
*small shaft in small hole (GM shaft in GM housing, use GM seal, one press ring) (Mopar shaft in Mopar housing, use GM seal, one press ring)
*small shaft in big hole (Ford shaft in Ford housing, use Ford seal, one press ring)
*big shaft in small hole (Moser Hobby in GM or Mopar housing, use special Timken seal, two press rings)
*big shaft in big hole (Moser Hobby or 40 spline in Ford housing, bronze has special press in seal in the bronze, use two press rings) (Moser Hobby or 40 spline in deep bore housing end, bronze has special press in seal in the bronze, use two press rings)
*big shaft in my 6.5" HD hubs (Moser Hobby or 40 spline, same as deep bore above)
For the big hole housings, there is also an "O" ring groove for an "O" ring around the O.D. of the bushing. (size #147). This "O" seals the bushing and the housing end. The big shaft, big hole combinations are nearly leak free, and will run for years.
I also have HD retainer plates. I also have a "spacer" ring plate that takes the place of Ford brake backing plates.
There is more, but that about covers the theory of the bushing.
David Bryan
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Post by mkvien on May 8, 2012 22:15:16 GMT -5
Yes, mis-spoke, meant bronze. Thanks for the feedback, I realize that they wouldn't save the axles, just was thinking that they are purpose built and might work without having to spend the extra money on the Moser housing ends. I already have the big Moser ends on the housing and 45mm bearings for my axles, just need to decide if it's worth the savings to try another 31-spline or if I should upgrade the spool and buy 2 new 33-spline (or the housing, spool & axles and go for 35). Knowing the best option, and actually coughing up the cash, are often 2 different things. The last one made about 4 minutes in one heat, and this isn't exactly the first 4 minutes of MM heat #1. Broke under the wicked acceleration of a stock 360 & 904 Mopar slushbox. 4:30, black #8 Lincoln. www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgqCJbOYPak |
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Post by jason77 on May 8, 2012 22:38:51 GMT -5
is there anybody out there that makes a top brace for a gm 10 bolt bought one of dave set ups this winter have back brace on it but want a top brace too....have had one ordered from demoderbypitstop.com or cutting edge machine whatever you wanna call it sence dec and 5 mouths and couting and still havent recived it and who knows may never....so if anybody that knows somebody that makes them or has some that would be great have tryed most other vendors and cant find nothing
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Post by David Bryan on May 8, 2012 23:26:32 GMT -5
Hello. mkvien, just a few thoughts. YOUR parts are still worth money. With a Lincoln housing, I assume you used one long shaft and one short shaft? If the short shaft broke, I do have a few "long" hobby stock shafts that have been twisted off. $25.00 each). You would need to send it in, shorten, respline, ($75.00) then have a replacement? If the long shaft broke, you would need to order new. When back together, you could run it OR sell it for cash. You then could up-grade even more?
One thing that is usually good for derby; have an assembly that has the same length axle shafts. This way, you need only one spare axle shaft.
David Bryan
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Post by mkvien on May 9, 2012 10:35:43 GMT -5
Hello. mkvien, just a few thoughts. YOUR parts are still worth money. With a Lincoln housing, I assume you used one long shaft and one short shaft? If the short shaft broke, I do have a few "long" hobby stock shafts that have been twisted off. $25.00 each). You would need to send it in, shorten, respline, ($75.00) then have a replacement? If the long shaft broke, you would need to order new. When back together, you could run it OR sell it for cash. You then could up-grade even more? One thing that is usually good for derby; have an assembly that has the same length axle shafts. This way, you need only one spare axle shaft. David Bryan That is good information, my housing started out under a 66-69 Lincoln as a 9-3/8". Yes, it does have 2 different lengths under it and the passenger side is the one that broke, but I think that is the long one. When I ordered it I used the following: B = 2.25 Passenger Side: C=31.25 K=29 In hindsight, I probably should have split the difference and ordered 2 of the same length axles, but as a wise man once told me..."education always costs you something, time, money, embarassment, etc." |
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Post by drivingbigtoys on May 9, 2012 22:46:46 GMT -5
Hello. mkvien, just a few thoughts. YOUR parts are still worth money. With a Lincoln housing, I assume you used one long shaft and one short shaft? If the short shaft broke, I do have a few "long" hobby stock shafts that have been twisted off. $25.00 each). You would need to send it in, shorten, respline, ($75.00) then have a replacement? If the long shaft broke, you would need to order new. When back together, you could run it OR sell it for cash. You then could up-grade even more? One thing that is usually good for derby; have an assembly that has the same length axle shafts. This way, you need only one spare axle shaft. David Bryan Just for Learners sake the hobby stock u plan to respline and shorten is that a 31 splines shaft originally? |
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Post by David Bryan on May 10, 2012 8:11:06 GMT -5
Hello. I have used 31 and 33 spline hobby stock axle shafts. Some are twisted off, some are twisted enough not to re-use. IF the shaft was a 31 spline to start, it can only be a 31 or smaller (can go 28 id it is needed). IF the shaft was 33 spline to start it can be a 33 spline again (or smaller). I have had Moser re-spline a 33 spline shaft to a 31 spline.
The 31 and smaller shafts from Moser are one "blank", and the 33, 35 spline are another "blank" to start out with. In another way, they are all not the same diameter shaft from the forge. This is before machine work starts.
If a shaft I have was 31.5" it start, and is twisted off at the splines (assume 3"), then the longest the shaft could be made new again is 28.5", possible 29".
One thing to note while on re-spline. We have used the passenger side (long one) from 71' - 76' Cadillacs. These can be sent in, shortened to 31.5" (although I always order 31 5/8"), and re-splined to 31. This then becomes a direct bolt in for the Buick or Olds 31 spline bolt in shafts. You do not need to remove the wheel bearing or wheel studs to do this. The Cadillacs have the same retainer plate pattern (and actually have a heavier retainer plate) and the flange is 1/2" thick. We have done dozens this way. And they work very well. Yes, they do twist off and are not a cure-all. If you can find the axle shafts cheap, it can be less cost than a Buick or Olds 12 bolt shaft. Almost always less cost than a new shaft. David Bryan
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Post by drivingbigtoys on May 10, 2012 9:34:47 GMT -5
I have read this since first post and can't remember if you have mentioned it I hate to reread it all with all the other bs...but are ford 31 splines axles made out of a softer material that allows then to twist off at the splines easier? I have always run them and never had any trouble but this year (im running a few more ponies as well) I twisted off the splines on 3 long axles on a 9 3/8 and 1 short....and on a truck housing I run once when I pulled the axles on it both sets of splines were twisted a splines around ..I almost always let off the gas asap if I take a wheel shot but I don't take many, I rarely replace wheels...just curious if its me and my driving or just a junk ford product  ... |
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Post by pourdown437 on May 10, 2012 19:35:38 GMT -5
Honestly car setup may have a big factor in your spline twisting problem
If your running solid suspension or close to solid suspension to where the car bounces acrossed the track that could be the difference your seeing in twisting axles
If one back tire is off the ground a 1/4 inch thats putting twice the stress on the other side....just a thought
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Post by crusher71 on May 10, 2012 22:44:57 GMT -5
I SOLD EVERY FORD 9 INCH AXLE I HAD ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO FOR 5 BUCKS EACH, I WOULD NEVER RUN THEM. THEY SNAP WHEN YOU SNEEZE.....
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61j
Rookie
Posts: 23
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Post by 61j on May 11, 2012 7:32:20 GMT -5
Knock on wood I have 8 shows on stock 9" 31's without breaking one, but I have seen the break when you sneeze.
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Post by hitparade on May 11, 2012 7:46:03 GMT -5
My opinion on Ford axles is just luck. I first started with 28 spline ford axles and never broke one. Then I switched to 31 spline axles and boom those start breaking. AT the time of switch though I started seeing more horse power in my own engines and others. So are Ford 31 spline axles worse than 28 spline axles? Did production years play a part in the problem? I don't care now since I am done with stock axles though:) THANKS DAVE!
Later
Brandon
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Post by David Bryan on May 11, 2012 9:06:58 GMT -5
Hello. I have seen a LOT of Ford pickup axle shafts break. As Jon wrote, they can break when unloading the car from the car trailer. I do know Chad and Tanner could snap them with just their horse power. They do have more than most though.
My thoughts on factory axle shafts and derbies now. Does the age (fatigue) of the shafts come in to play? Not so sure, I do not think so. Some say age, the older it is the weaker it will get, I do not think so much. If anything, the hot cold cycles should tend to stress relieve them more. The older a shaft the more "seasoned" it will become. A good thing. My thinking is three things. They are all a combination.
1. Wet tracks versus dry tracks. Back a few years ago, we needed deep lug tires just to move in the mud. I remember getting stuck a few times. Fire departments would love to show off all their toys as long as the could. 6" to 10" of mud seemed to be the norm. This kept the speed of cars down. Today, you will see just enough water to keep the dust down.
2. People know where to hit. Tires, or wheel shots, are where every one knows where to hit. You do not see much of two wagons going back to back for dozens of shots at a time any more. Even young drivers learn this quickly (internet?, yes).
3. More power, not so much from the engine, but gear ratio. In another way, 3:07 ratio was easier on the axle shafts. Even a stock 305 engine can twist a 31 spline axle shaft with 5:13 ratio. You did not see that much of deep ratios in the 90's. Couple that ratio with more horse power and you soon find the weak link.
Take any one of these three away, and life for the axle shaft gets easier.
Just some thoughts. David Bryan
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Post by fischbowl515 on May 17, 2012 21:24:37 GMT -5
Has anyone had any luck welding the bearing retainer ring to the axle on a 12 bolt or 9 inch axle?
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Post by crusher71 on May 17, 2012 22:57:58 GMT -5
DONT KNOW WHY YOU WOULD WANT TO, UNLESS THE O.D. OF YOUR AXLES HAVE SOMEHOW SHRUNKEN AND THE RING WONT STAY ON AFTER PRESSING IT. MIGHT STRESS THE AXLE AT THE WELD POINT..... PLUS, WOULD NEED TO BE BROUND/CUT OFF IF BEARINGS GOT DESTROYED AND SHAFT WAS STILL VIABLE. PERSONALLY, I WOULDNT WELD THE RING ON....
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